pre-primed linen glued to board

[Ifah1234]

Dear Amien Staff,

(Thank you for the possibility of asking you for advice. I greatly appreciate it.)
I have read on the forum for hours and hours and still I am not sure what the best solution is in my case.
This is the situation:
I have 20 m of Claessens pre-primed portraitlinen 13DPS (5 layers of oilprimer and I think rabbitskin glue as size).
I paint with highquality oilpaints from small to large formats 20 cm x 20 cm up to 200cm x 200cm- usually stretched onto stretchers, attached with nails on the sides- even the smallest painting.
The larger paintings I tape to the wall, paint them, let them "dry" for a few weeks and have them stretched onto high quality heavy duty stretchers, also tacked with nails on the sides.

I chiefly use Liquin these days, mostly because it feels healthier to me than the old mediums I used to mix with dammar etc. and also because of the non-glossy surface. And also because I am used to it and the act of painting is work enough and so I was happy to not have to worry about the medium-until now! Reading through your forum made me panick a little about the durability and the cracking etc. of oilpaintings and all the problems that can occur (and will!) with all elements involved.
I believed until now, that the oilprimed linen from Belgium, hand primed and sanded inbtw drying, was the best I can do for my clients in terms of delivering best art on best supports.
These times are over. I see there is much more that can be done better.

questions:

1. What do you think about this Claessens 5x primed linen? (called 13DPS) Do you have any experience with it?

2. What would be the best way to use this linen in your opinion?
Should I glue it on to board? Which kind of board (tempered or not?)
Which glues/sizes could I use?
Do I need to "clean" the surface of the board before glueing? How?
Should I glue the linen around the braces to the inside/back of the board? Do I need to size the board on the back as well?

3. I am now also unsure about the use of this Alkyd medium Liquin. What most noncracking, non-yellowing medium(s) would you use for a) direct painting b) indirect painting

Essentially I would like your view on how to best use this linen in terms of the future and longevity of the paintings.
I would also like to know what you think is the best support for painting larger oilpaintings (ex.: 2m x 2m)

Is painting with oils on primed board "better" than painting on linen glued to board?

There also are laminated boards. Can the lamintion be painted on after priming?
What about board with a thin, see-through, glossy lamination, like that on smooth tabletops- should this lamination be sanded off or can it be "kept"? lets say I want to use an old, solid wood, table top to paint on (with oil).

And here just a thought: I find an oilpainting much more attractive and "valuable" than an acrylic painting. No doubt that oils and acrylics are also visually a different world. I find clients always love to hear the word "oil". I would be interested in your thoughts on this. How would you "sell" an "acrylic" painting?

Thank you very, very much in advance- for your endless patience and generous advice in this forum.

Sincerely,

Ifah

[AMIEN]

Dear Amien Staff,

(Thank you for the possibility of asking you for advice. I greatly appreciate it.)
I have read on the forum for hours and hours and still I am not sure what the best solution is in my case.
This is the situation:
I have 20 m of Claessens pre-primed portrait linen 13DPS (5 layers of oilprimer and I think rabbitskin glue as size).
I paint with high quality oil paints from small to large formats 20 cm x 20 cm up to 200cm x 200cm- usually stretched onto stretchers, attached with nails on the sides- even the smallest painting.
The larger paintings I tape to the wall, paint them, let them "dry" for a few weeks and have them stretched onto high quality heavy duty stretchers, also tacked with nails on the sides.

I chiefly use Liquin these days, mostly because it feels healthier to me than the old mediums I used to mix with damar etc. and also because of the non-glossy surface. And also because I am used to it and the act of painting is work enough and so I was happy to not have to worry about the medium -- until now! Reading through your forum made me panic a little about the durability and the cracking etc. of oil paintings and all the problems that can occur (and will!) with all elements involved.
I believed until now, that the oil primed linen from Belgium, hand primed and sanded inbetween drying, was the best I can do for my clients in terms of delivering best art on best supports.
These times are over. I see there is much more that can be done better.

Questions:

1. What do you think about this Claessens 5x primed linen? (called 13DPS) Do you have any experience with it? In the past (c. five years ago) we had a report from a well-established artist that there was some sort of coating on the surface of the priming of this brand of material that interfered with the adhesion of the oil paints. We recommended wiping down the priming with a solvent-dampened rag; rather than deal with the health and safety matters of handling solvents, and the hassle, the artist opted to change pre-primed linen suppliers. We do not know if these problems persist with the brand.

2. What would be the best way to use this linen in your opinion?
Should I glue it on to board? Yes. Which kind of board (tempered or not?) Tempered, untempered, or plywood. We recommend perimeter bracing, and for sizes larger than 60 cm on a side we recommend cross-bracing.
Which glues/sizes could I use? Use an acrylic dispersion gel medium. Do a Search here for "mounting fabric on panels."
Do I need to "clean" the surface of the board before glueing? How? Lightly sand the panel, and dust it off.
Should I glue the linen around the braces to the inside/back of the board? Do I need to size the board on the back as well? No, you can just glue it to the front of the panel and stretch it around the bracing. If you are using no bracing, you can fold the linen over to the back side and glue it down. In this case, we don't think it necessary to size the panel.

3. I am now also unsure about the use of this Alkyd medium Liquin. What most noncracking, non-yellowing medium(s) would you use for a) direct painting b) indirect painting? Any of the oil/alkyd mediums will work. If you are painting on a fabric glued to a panel, you shouldn't worry about cracking.

Essentially I would like your view on how to best use this linen in terms of the future and longevity of the paintings. See above!

I would also like to know what you think is the best support for painting larger oilpaintings (ex.: 2m x 2m) See above!

Is painting with oils on primed board "better" than painting on linen glued to board? In our opinion, each is good.

There also are laminated boards. Can the lamination be painted on after priming? Do you mean MDF and MDO? We would prefer to see these have linen glued over them for painting, rather than having them used as is.

What about board with a thin, see-through, glossy lamination, like that on smooth tabletops- should this lamination be sanded off or can it be "kept"? [B]Sand it thoroughly and glue fabric to it.[/B Let's say I want to use an old, solid wood, table top to paint on (with oil). Sand it and prime it with more than two coatings of an oil ground or a high quality acrylic dispersion ground -- and sand/prime both sides of a solid wood panel.

And here just a thought: I find an oil painting much more attractive and "valuable" than an acrylic painting. That's a matter of opinion, not fact. No doubt that oils and acrylics are also visually a different world. I find clients always love to hear the word "oil". I would be interested in your thoughts on this. How would you "sell" an "acrylic" painting? We do not discuss aesthetics or sales at AMIEN.

Thank you very, very much in advance -- for your endless patience and generous advice in this forum. You're very welcome!

Sincerely,

Ifah

Ifah1234,

Welcome to AMIEN.

Your questions are fairly complex so we are answering them in the body of your post, above.

If you have more questions, feel free to ask them!

[CBeasley]

Ifah1234,
Questions:

1. What do you think about this Claessens 5x primed linen? (called 13DPS) Do you have any experience with it? In the past (c. five years ago) we had a report from a well-established artist that there was some sort of coating on the surface of the priming of this brand of material that interfered with the adhesion of the oil paints. We recommended wiping down the priming with a solvent-dampened rag; rather than deal with the health and safety matters of handling solvents, and the hassle, the artist opted to change pre-primed linen suppliers. We do not know if these problems persist with the brand.

Please don't tell me this about Claessens, I just bought a roll of #15 DP :-(
I thought it was Artfix that had the coating problem? see link below

http://www.amien.org/forums/showthre...ghlight=Artfix

Did they ever figure out what the coating was?

Is there a inherent problem with the non-leaded primes being used now?

Are there any pre-primed oil linens that you've heard good technical reviews about?

[AMIEN]

Please don't tell me this about Claessens, I just bought a roll of #15 DP :-(
I thought it was Artfix that had the coating problem? see link below

http://www.amien.org/forums/showthre...ghlight=Artfix

Did they ever figure out what the coating was?

Is there a inherent problem with the non-leaded primes being used now?

Are there any pre-primed oil linens that you've heard good technical reviews about?

CBeasley,

Different artist, different brand, same difficulties. However and as we pointed out, this was a while ago and there is a good possibility that the problem no longer exists.

In neither case was anything ever explained to any of us. We know of no inherent problems with the "non-leaded" primers out there, now. It's still a good idea to wipe the surface of the priming with OMS (wear protection, please) in case something is there.

Several domestic brands, including Masterpiece and Tara Materials, offer reliable products; even better, they will talk to you about them.

One day we will have an ASTM standard for oil pre-primed fabrics ...

[CBeasley]

Wow. This is fascinating in a bad sota way. Wonder if it was something in the ground itself? Or maybe was a powder coating applied to help the surface to prevent sticking of the linen sheets as they dry or as the are rolled? They indicate on their website that it is machine primed and that could have something to do with it.

I believe Fredrix still hand primes their oil ground linens - or at least some of them. I will try some of their's as well. Here is a insightful video on how they hand prime it. http://vimeo.com/5969459

I want Jimmy and his crew to come to my house. I want their priming table right in my living room! My wife would love that! :-O

I have a question about non-lead oil/alkyd oil primers. I've used Gamblin's and its fine. However, I wanting to experiment with a ground that holds the brushstrokes better, not so much leveling out - which is good thing most of the time, but not what I want right now. Also theirs has too much gloss for this experiment which I know I can always sand off - sometimes that gloss worries me. Looking for a ground that will make brushy painterly strokes and texture. Is there one out there like this or a way to modify the Gamblin ground safely(which I know they wont like - please don't tell)? Other grounds I'm looking at but have not tried yet are Fredrix Titanium oil (alkyd or linseed???), Windsor & Newton alkyd ground, Williamsburg Titanium ground(alkyd or linseed???). Texture, Brushy, less gloss.

ASTM standard for oil pre-primed will be cool!

Thanks
Chris

[AMIEN]

Wow. This is fascinating in a bad sorta way. Wonder if it was something in the ground itself? Or maybe was a powder coating applied to help the surface to prevent sticking of the linen sheets as they dry or as the are rolled? They indicate on their website that it is machine primed and that could have something to do with it.

I believe Fredrix still hand primes their oil ground linens - or at least some of them. I will try some of their's as well. Here is a insightful video on how they hand prime it. http://vimeo.com/5969459

I want Jimmy and his crew to come to my house. I want their priming table right in my living room! My wife would love that! :-O

I have a question about non-lead oil/alkyd oil primers. I've used Gamblin's and its fine. However, I wanting to experiment with a ground that holds the brushstrokes better, not so much leveling out - which is good thing most of the time, but not what I want right now. Also theirs has too much gloss for this experiment which I know I can always sand off - sometimes that gloss worries me. Looking for a ground that will make brushy painterly strokes and texture. Is there one out there like this or a way to modify the Gamblin ground safely(which I know they wont like - please don't tell)? Other grounds I'm looking at but have not tried yet are Fredrix Titanium oil (alkyd or linseed???), Windsor & Newton alkyd ground, Williamsburg Titanium ground(alkyd or linseed???). Texture, Brushy, less gloss.

ASTM standard for oil pre-primed will be cool!

Thanks
Chris

CBeasley,

If either company had responded to our inquiries, we'd know what to say.

You can modify an oil ground out of the can by mixing in a proportion of chalk or powdered marble. These amendments will reduce the gloss a bit, make the ground a bit more absorbent, and allow it to hold brush marks without leveling out so much. We caution you to make an experiment with a small amount on some scrap canvas or linen and let it dry thoroughly to see how it looks and feels. If you add to much chalk, you could end up with a brittle ground, and you don't want that.

You also could buy a sandable acrylic dispersion ground, which is already fairly matte and quite absorbent.

[CBeasley]

Another question for discussion.
The latest rage now is linen mounted to Gatorfoam panels, which is more durable that regular foam-board. I know these are lightweight good for travel, etc. I've used it for advertising signage that need to travel but never intended for it to be around for many, many years. It contain Polystyrene foam. What is the longevity prognosis on such a product compared to wood or hardboard, etc? Its pretty pricey and I have some doubts about its longterm stability.

Chris

[CBeasley]

Thanks

on the powdered marble - do you think I should wet it first with a little linseed oil and/or OMS or dump it into the ground dry and just stir it in? Also will adding a little linseed to the alkyd ground interfere with it at all - except make it slower drying?

Yes experiments with acrylic grounds are underway as well - don't really the plastic feel of the ground for oil paintings so I trying mixing small amounts of sandable ground as well versions with molding pastes mixed with the regular acrylic ground. (All Golden grounds so far)

[AMIEN]

Another question for discussion.
The latest rage now is linen mounted to Gatorfoam panels, which is more durable that regular foam-board. I know these are lightweight good for travel, etc. I've used it for advertising signage that need to travel but never intended for it to be around for many, many years. It contain polystyrene foam. What is the longevity prognosis on such a product compared to wood or hardboard, etc? Its pretty pricey and I have some doubts about its long term stability.

Chris

CBeasley,

Polystyrene is stable except when it's exposed to UV light, and if it burns the fumes are toxic. Gatorfoam and Gatorboard are two different forms of this branded product. The foam type has paper or synthetic paper skins; the board type is laminated sheets of polystyrene -- much stiffer and better for larger size pictures, provided you use the thickest sheet.

We would glue a linen or cotton fabric to these panels with an acrylic dispersion gel medium, folding excess fabric over to the back of the panel to cover the edges. Then we'd add a size to the fabric and at least two coats of a ground, and coat both sides of the panel with an equal number of ground coatings to inhibit warping.

Any wooden panel is going to be longer-lived than these styrene panels for two reasons: 1.) The wood is denser and heavier, and 2.) No one really knows how long styrene will last (we've never seen nor heard of longevity studies), since it's a comparatively newer material.

[AMIEN]

Thanks

On the powdered marble - do you think I should wet it first with a little linseed oil and/or OMS or dump it into the ground dry and just stir it in? Also will adding a little linseed to the alkyd ground interfere with it at all - except make it slower drying?

Yes experiments with acrylic grounds are underway as well - don't really [like?] the plastic feel of the ground for oil paintings so I trying mixing small amounts of sandable ground as well versions with molding pastes mixed with the regular acrylic ground. (All Golden grounds so far)

CBeasley,

We put the ground on a slab (or a palette) and rub the marble powder in with a large palette knife. We get a much better and more even dispersion this way, as opposed to " ... dump it into the ground dry and just stir it in ... ". Nor would we complicate matters by adding oil to the ground. We favor keeping things a simple as possible when dealing with oil-based materials.

Re the acrylic dispersion products and their "plastic feel": The methacrylate resin on which they're based is ... a plastic. You'll get used to it and then use it! These materials are much more complicated than the oil materials, but all the stuff you can mix together is compatible and the mixtures are durable.